Boats Database: Liquid Logic Remix XP 10

It is often said that there is gap in kayak design, that no “one” kayak excels in whitewater yet carries speed across flat calm lakes and slow moving rivers… that is until now. The Remix XP was designed to bridge the gap between the two once and for all. The Remix XP is an extension of our popular river runner series and although its roots are firmly planted in whitewater the XP’s extended waterline allows it to cruise the flats with ease. The XP has and integral skeg which when deployed offers superb tracking but with the skeg tucked away the XP offers the agility needed to excel on whitewater.

Hi! In need of some advice. New to ww kayaking and quite like the sound of the Liquid Logic XP10 as a first kayak. I will probably be kayaking down the Tay, Earn,Tweed and improving on a canal. Would anyone like to point me in the right direction, or any other Kayaks that I might consider

What type of rivers do you plan on paddling? As long as it is class 3/4 and below, you will probably be fine, but it will be harder to learn how to roll, since it is 3" wider than the Remix 59, and the cockpit is not a standard size, so you will have to have a few sprayskirts because the Remix XP10 has a rim size of 38x21.5, and most boats are around 34x19 (inches). You will be much better off learning in a Remix 59 than a Remix XP10, because it is made purely for whitewater, and will be easier to learn WW skills.

if the XP 9 was available in South Africa, I would have bought one for myself. It makes a lot of sense of a beginner.

Its not a full on creek boat but it allows one important thing. Confidence.
It's beamy so its more stable.
It's has a drop skeg to make tracking on the flats easier.
It does not have much rocker, has long water line length compared to full on WW boats so it's faster on the flats, and it can handle rapids better than a Touring boat.

I learned to Eskimo roll on a Waveski. If you've ever tried an Eskimo roll on a waveski you'll know that it is a very physical exercise that requires a lot of practice. I have found Eskimo rolling a kayak to be a lot easier, but still physical. Point is, yes it will be harder to roll the XP10 but it's an essential skill so you will learn how to execute a roll reliably. It may take an hour longer than in a ww boat.
Chose the boat that makes you want to get out and paddle. This will build your confidence, fitness and paddling skill. As with all things in life, once you are hooked, get a proper Creeker / River Runner for serious white water duties.

IMO, you can't go wrong with the XP10 or the Dagger Approach as a beginner.
of course you could also buy a proper ww boat first time and sign up for a ww course at a place like Bala and take it from there.

But to me, the XP10 is a boat thats so versatile, you'll keep it for life. Just ask people who own Prijon Yukon Expedition kayaks. They love em. It's more a tourer that can handle ww where the Remix XP is a WW boat that can handle the flats.

A word about the Dagger Approach: as I stated in my review of the XP9, I did a lot of research and I really looked at the Approach. True words though: this Dagger is cheaply constructed. Not even in the same build quality or class as the LL XP. I'm not sponsored--just speaking the truth. If one were to go with the Approach over the XP make sure you pay $200 less because it would be unfair to the buyer otherwise. Now, I haven't paddled the Approach. I would say that my experience to date with hulls suggests to me that the Approach is much more a beginner boat that wouldn't do white water as well (look at the pictures).

Again, I'm still getting to know my XP, but I'm not even sure I'd consider it a beginner WW boat. (Still, I am a much more experienced sea kayaker than a WW kayaker in any sense, so....). I recently had it out in 25 knot wind-driven flow and was really impressed with it.

Just got off a eleven day self support trip on the Grand Canyon and used an XP 10 for the trip. The boat was awesome and I just wanted to spew about it a little. First of all, yes, I am one of the owners of liquidlogic but don't take this review as totally biased (although it kinda is). I've read some of the other posts here and just wanted to give some feedback on what to expect with the XP 10. Here are my stats: age:52, weight 245lbs (big dude), foot size 13 (US), height 6'4". The XP fits well, the cockpit is a little bigger than the standard ww kayak. Its easy to get into and out of but what I like most about the cockpit size and the deck height was that is was very easy for me to take my legs out from under the thigh braces while paddling. This was great as most of the Canyon is flat-water and it allowed me to relax my legs in a different position. The XP has traditional foot pegs and not a bulkhead (like most standard kayaks) which is a blessing when it came to stuffing extra needed gear in the bow. We had so much gear with us that the bow of the XP was packed. The footpegs allowed easy access to the bow and were very comfortable. The back hatch was another big standout... by opening the hatch we were able to stuff small bits of gear in small empty places between dry bags something that without a hatch is impossible ( I used up these spots by wedging my gas cannisters between dry bags) this cannot be done effectively without a hatch in the back. Another good storage place is behind the seat. There was plenty of room for two small dry bags, water bottle and a small first aid kit. The XP is a little wider than "traditional ww kayaks" and the first thought is that would make it harder to roll but we found (even loaded) that the XP rolled very easily the initial start of the roll is slightly harder but because the side wall is round the middle and final part of the roll is nice and gentle. The spring loaded skeg was the standout feature of the XP on our trip. Being that 92% of the Grand is flatwater with funky swirls, boil lines (that come out of no where) and whirlpools that looks as it they could sink a ship (not really but they WERE scary) the skeg allowed us to cut through that stuff like an arrow but when we got to the top of a rapid a quick flick of the lever and the XP immediately loosened up and we were again manuverable again. While we designed the XP for beginner - intermediate class rivers its performance on the Grand was without reproach. This kayak can handle whatever you thow at it, the huge waves of the canyon had no ill effects on the boat.... I think XP is one of the best kayaks we have ever designed here at LL and one that many people will keep in their quiver for a long, long time. If you are looking for a boat to learn in or if you are into doing overnight runs the XP is a great choice. Enjoy, Woody Callaway

Thanks for that glowing review Woody.
Indeed the XP series does look to be a superb craft. The only problem I see with it is that it is NOT available in South Africa where we have lots of lakes and some excellent 1 to 4 day WW opportunities within a few hours drive from Cape Town. The Remix XP9 would be the perfect boat for our area.
I assume a bulkhead is an option. I would not paddle a boat down some of our rivers with foot pegs, not thanks. not me.

The XP9 has a water tight aft bulkhead. The foot braces are very high quality on mine and it has a center line closed cell foam pillar in the nose running almost up to your knees (ish).

Woody,

Nice communicating with the guy who was an architect of this boat. I'm really enjoying this kayak. Your video on your website about it really helped sway me in the direction of the XP9 and I haven't been disappointed at all.

This is the boat that makes my plans to eventually move to the Georgia mountains make sense for me. And in dealing with your company I can say it's obvious how much you folks care about your work. I had a suggestion and you guys listened. (*If I do move to GA in addition to making good use of my XP9 there I'd also definitely pick up another one of your kayaks.)

*I really enjoyed your pics and story about your canyon trip on the LL website!

Tom

You could probably make a bulkhead for your feet if you wanted to, by gluing some 3" minicell foam to the inside plastic of the boat, but that would mean that you couldn't load gear in the front. If you could find someone with a broken WW kayak, you could probably buy the bulkhead from them and retrofit it to your boat. The foam would not be cut right, but you could easily replace it by cutting foam to the right size and gluing it to the bulkhead.

I think the lack of a bulkhead on an Ex factory Remix XP is a gap.

Why? Well is this boat is a versatile and confidence inspiring as LL claim, then its going to get used on ww once the owner has the skill. if that's the case then the boat should have the necessary safety features built into it which should include a step out pillar and bulkhead.

without those features it's just a touring craft with a WW looking hull. That kinda limits versatility in my view.

Still those are simple issues to address so this boat still has a lot of potential to be a true one-boat-for-all.

It doesn't really need a step out pillar, since it not designed as a creeker. Look at virtually every river runner or river runner/creeker, and quite a few creekers, and you will see that the majority of them do not have a step out pillar. Also, if you were in a river or creek where there is a good chance of pinning, you probably would lack the maneuverability because of the boat's length to perform well, and the backxess hatch would probably implode before you would be concerned about a step. Pyranha has released the Fusion, which appears to be quite similar to the Remix, so I would like to see these 2 boats compete head-to-head.

There is no way that hatch is going to implode. You'd be dead due to the forces required to do that long before so it wouldn't matter. It is very hard plastic. It doesn't even flex. I like it better than Necky or Hurricane hatch systems. Maybe its not a creeker. It certainly isn't one of those little playboats. It is, however, a river runner. I can't imagine needing a forward foam bulk head but, whatever.

It handles up to class IV pretty well. I think you might be missing something. Would be great if you could try it---might be easier than trying to explain it. With the skeg up it is hyper-maneuverable. Turns on a dime. With it down it tracks well enough for 15 mile treks (I've done it several times). Every boat has a different purpose. Every boat. This one really does a couple of roles very well. I've not taken it bashing into rocks down waterfalls. Don't plan on it either. It's a river runner. It really does handle rough washing machine-like conditions very well.

I was just saying that to make a point of not needing a step, since you shouldn't be paddling it on creeks where there is the possibility of a pin situation. I would definitely love to try one, but I am not sure when my local dealer will have a demo available. Also, I like the Old Town/Hobie hatch systems the most, since you just unscrew it to open it, but should be very watertight since you can cinch it down. Once again, I would love to see it head to head against the Fusion, since they are very similar designs, but the Fusion has the deeper skeg like the Master TG or the Dagger Approach, and it also appears to have more rocker.

I can't find a picture of the Fushion anywhere. I realize it's not out yet. But would be curious to see what it looks like. Pyranha make good boats too I know. I may pick up an RX300 some day (God I have too many boats--my wife is gonna kill me!). It looks like a great slalom boat. See, that's what I was after (and got) in the XP9; I can never know when it will be relatively calm on the river or if it will be blowing, so the XP is great for either. Like a configurable kayak.

cjcc wrote:

I was just saying that to make a point of not needing a step, since you shouldn't be paddling it on creeks where there is the possibility of a pin situation.

Gotcha and I'm sure you're right about that.

Here's the site.

I also have uploaded the boat to the kayak database, so it should be there in a few days. Click any of this text and it should link to Pyranha's site.

Hey thanks. I couldn't find it on their site.

Very interesting boat and I wouldn't mind giving it a spin. Just by looking at the picture I am wanting to say that the LL XP is going to be more maneuverable (the XP9 is a foot shorter) as the Fushion looks narrower (and as you said has some more rocker), so it may be faster. Wonder how the tracking compares. It looks more like a transitional touring boat to me. But just speculation as I haven't seen it in the wild. The lines tend to blur on some of these 10 foot boats IMHO.

The Fusion would probably be more manueverable because of the rocker, and the Remix would be faster because of the extended waterline. Here's a comparison to the XP10. It also has a front deck recess, and directly behind the cockpit, there appears to be a large dip, which is kind of interesting. One other thing is that the Fusion was probably based off of the Burn, and the Remix XP10 was based off of the Remix, which is evident based on the side profile. The Speeder , which is probably still going to be better as far as speed goes, as will boats like the Dagger Green Boat, Prijon Tornado, Dragorossi Reaction, Perception Wavehopper, and any other wildwater/longboat.

cjcc wrote:

It doesn't really need a step out pillar, since it not designed as a creeker. Look at virtually every river runner or river runner/creeker, and quite a few creekers, and you will see that the majority of them do not have a step out pillar. Also, if you were in a river or creek where there is a good chance of pinning, you probably would lack the maneuverability because of the boat's length to perform well, and the backxess hatch would probably implode before you would be concerned about a step. Pyranha has released the Fusion, which appears to be quite similar to the Remix, so I would like to see these 2 boats compete head-to-head.

If this boat is to weak to handle a WW situation, then it should not be called a crossover, it should be called a tourer.
The user reports and manufacturer seems to trumpeting its ww ability. I have now formed the opinion that its a good ww boat and an ideal One boat for both touring and river running.
However the outfitting clearly shouts "tourer!!"

If that the case then a Prijon Yukon Expedition is probably the better choice.

You know the XP does have a solid pillar down the center line nose. It's the same thing I've seen in numerous river runners. Not sure if that's what you're talking about when you say 'step-out pillar.'

Like I've said before--I have much more experience with sea kayaks (the background I am coming from). Comparing the overall outfitting (quality wise) the LL XP is at the top of the food chain. It can tour and it does it well but if that was what one was solely looking for I would say pick yourself up a sea yak of whatever length suites your needs (I go with the 17 foot variety myself). What I like about the XP so far is that it tracks really well (better than any ww boat I've paddled) but surfs better than any rec boat I've paddled. So it is pretty versatile.

I used to take my Hurricane Tracer sea yak out in the river surf (and people do this all the time) but I find that I really prefer maneuverability to speed in those conditions, so a WW boat like the XP was what I was after. It can get out out to where you want to be (where the water is doing funky stuff or the waves are), you can range all over, and dog it when you get there. Lot's of fun.

I am noticing a growing number of companies are putting out boats in this niche. Even Jackson Kayaks has one coming out. The interesting thing will be to see who pulls it off and who makes a rec boat unintentionally.

FluidTim: I'm thinkin you'll have to go the international order way to get your hands on a LL, no? S. Africa has some unique designs we can't get here (Australia too--especially those slolam boats).

Thanks, thats what i needed to know.
I refer to the longitudinal upright in a WW as the step out pillar, whether foam or plastic.
The reason creek boats have a plastic version is for additional strength for safety in a pin situation.
So if the LL has the foam pillar then thats comforting.

I've investigated the opportunity to import one into SA but it's just too expensive with import duties and shipping charges due to the volume (essentially nearly half a cubic metre including packaging. Exchange rate, shipping, and duty simply makes it way too expensive. I also looked at importing one of Corran's Dragorossi Critical Mass or Reaction boats but same story.

I can live with not having the LL available in the short term. Hopefully Fluid develops a similar type boat since the majority of the SA river paddlers could benefit from such crossover boats year round. If priced correctly there is definite opportunity amongst Sea kayakers, k1 paddlers, WW paddlers and waveskiers to own something like a XP. Instead of having a garage full of boats, it is far more preferable to own one specialist boat and an all rounder than 3 or 4 or 5 specialist boats.

"Instead of having a garage full of boats, it is far more preferable to own one specialist boat and an all rounder than 3 or 4 or 5 specialist boats."

I dunno--kayaks are like potato chips; you can never have just a few. (I like that the damn things breed in my garage!)

*Let me know if you want some pictures of various angles of the XP9. *I'm having a time of it getting someone to photo it/me when I go out; I really just love to paddle; it's kind of a bother to worry about cameras. Warming back up here in Florida so I can have my daughter pull that duty pretty soon (she loves to kayak but I haven't gotten the cold weather gear for her yet, being 10 and growing so fast).

Cheers.

As a side note, the XP series has the exact same outfitting as their whitewater boats, like the CR, Jefe, Remix, and Biscuit series. A step out pillar is normally in creek boats, like the WS Habitat and the Fluid Solo, as a few examples. Also, the Remix XP and Fusion are similar, and the Approach and Allwater are pretty similar, but I would still prefer the Pyranha Master TG, since it is designed primarily for whitewater. Or, you could get a good whitewater boat and an inexpensive rec boat, and you should be fine. My Dagger Zydeco, which is a low end rec boat, has a styrofoam-like pillar, with a white foam with bubbles in it, but I can squeeze it and it will compress. Remember that the sole reason for the pillar is to keep the deck from caving in, so that is why a creek boat would have a rotomolded pillar, a playboat has a minicell pillar, and a rec boat would have a styrofoam pillar or no pillar, depending on the brand. That is why Eskimo and Prijon don't use pillars, because they have stronger plastic and a pillar is not necessary.

TBudd wrote:

"Instead of having a garage full of boats, it is far more preferable to own one specialist boat and an all rounder than 3 or 4 or 5 specialist boats."

I dunno--kayaks are like potato chips; you can never have just a few. (I like that the damn things breed in my garage!)

*Let me know if you want some pictures of various angles of the XP9. *I'm having a time of it getting someone to photo it/me when I go out; I really just love to paddle; it's kind of a bother to worry about cameras. Warming back up here in Florida so I can have my daughter pull that duty pretty soon (she loves to kayak but I haven't gotten the cold weather gear for her yet, being 10 and growing so fast).

Cheers.

look dude, I'm under severe pressure from the live in IRS official to reduce the number of toys in the garage. Already I can't get another boat until either a MTB or waveski is move along to a less deserving recipient.
I just about managed to get the creek boat into the garage cos I told her it was on a trial basis. eventually it grew on her so she suggested I keep it. Of course I had already paid for it a month earlier...
Now I have to get her a sit on top cos she wants to paddle as well. Boat rationalisation is important to keep up with my hobbies.........potato chips......humph

Funny! Man! You mean you haven't run the "Honey, look what I won in an online contest!" thing yet?! That worked for one yak I bought.

And she was sooo proud of me.

i used up that line on a few other items.

i was getting so lucky she wondered why i've never won the lottery.

I would like to ask Woody how he spent a week in a boat with no back support. Did he spend a couple of weekends in his garage with a stack of outfitting foam before his trip? The back band in this boat ends about where my back begins, its really more of a butt band. I'm 6'1" 210 lbs. so I bought the XP10 figuring a too small boat would be worse than a little bigger than optimal. While I can see the need for quick exits and the ability to have full movement, I have already done a limbo under a fallen tree in one of the tight little creeks I run in. It seems that "some" back support would be most desirable, I'm not in an athletic position [as the folks at colorado kayak supply put it] as much as a constant semi sit up. Having tried to paddle against a 3 -4 knot current, that's my sailing experience estimate, due to the speed of the hull and my arm and chest strength [I'm a blacksmith by trade] I was able to make nice headway but my back gave out before I got where I was going. The boat will be fine for the 30 to 40 minute run in the creek across from my house, but I won't be doing anything like touring or exploring lakes and calm rivers until I spend a couple of weekends with the foam, I'm a furniture designer with a full shop at my disposal so I'll be able to make things right, other folks may have a more difficult time.
Seems to me LL designed a boat that really is great for white water, you can just spin in a circle in one spot all day, they forgot about the touring aspect once the designed the hatch and skeg. If I had it to do over again I probably buy a dedicated creek boat since I may not be using it for any touring at all.
A suggestion for LL why not design a integral seat with back support that slides using the same excellent ratchet system as opposed to just the back band. I have rented recreational kayaks with excellent seats that did not seem to restrict my movements at all.
By the way, to the guy whose worried about the hatch imploding, your way out of this boats league, this is for amateurs like me.

Cukalamunga, You are correct in that the backband is lower than backbands in recreational kayaks. Lower backbands are common in ww boats for two reasons. 1- In order for most skirts (especially neoprene) to work the backband must be below the cockpit of a kayak. In most recreational kayaks this is not a concern as most of the paddling is on open flat water.
2- rolling a kayak... a backband that comes up to high limits the movement (sweep) of the roll and does not allow the paddler the ability to sweep out far enough to execute a roll properly.
That said we are working on a backband extender which will come up much higher for folks that do not intend on putting on a neoprene skirt or paddling their XP on rivers over class II. I look forward to seeing your addition to the backband (must be nice having a furniture builder nearby....please send a photo or post one on this site of your customizing.... can't wait to see it ... who knows maybe you can give us a few hints. thanks, Woody

Nice to know your on the topic. I have to say despite my criticism of the seat, the boat is excellent in every other way.
Just got my foam order so I'll work on that over the weekend. Probably build out from the bulkhead and try to fit it right under the gunnel, really only need an inch or two for the adjustment I need, maybe something to hold the back band up on the sides also. Will post photos when done.